I Was Winning at Work While My Marriage Was Falling Apart | Kyle Holmes

0:02 Paul Salter: Kyle, you spent the early part of your career just relentlessly climbing. I mean, you moved five times in a four-year span. And ultimately, by the age of 25, you achieved one of your biggest goals, becoming GM at a club nearby. What did you believe would finally change inside you once you achieved your goal of becoming GM? Kyle Holmes: I just always felt that I possessed different skill sets than other people in the industry and that I was meant for more. You know, a a similar a normal tract for somebody who's going into the golf industry is to, you know, spend four to eight years as an assistant, maybe you move once, maybe you wait for somebody to retire. and I always felt like I didn't want to wait, you know, and so there was when an opportunity presented itself to move somewhere else, learn from somebody else. you know, take a a bigger job. I always pursued it because I it just in inside me I always knew that there I I I didn't want to wait for things to come to me. I wanted to make them happen.

1:09 Paul Salter: What did you believe would happen if you left your feature in the hands of somebody else and had to wait? Kyle Holmes: I have always asked people who were above me or achieved more than me from a young age, you know, what they knew, how they did it. And so I'm a constant learner. And so I never feared that because I was always in a position where if I was gonna meet somebody and eventually and it it didn't work out, you know, they moved on and I was left high and dry. At the very least I would have gotten that experience with them to kind of pick their brain, how they operate, what worked, what didn't. And I would take that with me wherever I went next. Paul Salter: You've said it twice already. You believe you were meant for more. You didn't want to wait. You've got this potential. It's time to showcase it, show it to the world, these skills that are slightly different from your competitors, other peers in the industry. As you kept climbing and climbing at such an aggressive rate, what was that young man trying to prove?

2:08 Kyle Holmes: I think I was trying to prove to myself that I could make it and that I I once I made it I could do a good job doing it. and th and this is not a slight of my father. it's something that him and I joke about to this day. but he he was in the golf industry his whole career, just on the other side. You know, so he was a superintendent on the agronomy side and I entered the business from the PGA route from a business side. And as a kid he would always remind me of my brother, he's like, Don't go into the golf industry. You're gonna work when people don't, you're gonna work holidays, you're gonna work weekends, you know, and and he was being a good dad. He was he was trying to set up our future. And I think a part of me was like, I wanna prove wrong, but not in a bad way. It was very motivating.

2:59 Paul Salter: Tell me more about that. Like how did that motivation and that desire to prove him wrong show up maybe in your work ethic and how you approached your job? Kyle Holmes: the work ethic comes from watching him. He was a v unbelievably hard worker. always had been, still is to this day, even though he's retired now. You know, somebody who doesn't really have an off switch, wakes up in the morning and is go, go, go, go, go. and then when it's, you know, time to shut it down and go to bed, you know, and that's kinda how I viewed him. And I'm sure he had moments where he when I wasn't around where he took some time for himself, but it didn't feel that way. It felt like he was just constantly always trying to do the best job he could at every step. and so I get the work ethic from him and you know the the prove it mentality. The more I think about it as we're talking through it, I'm not sure that it was to prove him wrong, but it was to prove that my dreams and aspirations of wanting to be in this business were right and I can make them work.

4:05 Paul Salter: Tell me more about that dream, that aspiration to be in this business. Like, why was that so important to you? What fueled you to go to great lengths to achieve what you've achieved today? Kyle Holmes: I mean, I think it comes down to the simple fact that I've I've always known in my head that I think differently and I operate differently than most of the people around me, whether that be, you know, growing up in high school, going to college, and and as I was moving through, you know, assistant jobs and kind of quote unquote climbing the ladder, I just always kind of saw things differently and and so I I felt like If I see these things differently and and when I have an idea or I you know, I pitch a concept to somebody, you know, that I work for, and then it happens and it works, why shouldn't I be doing that on a bigger scale? Instead of how do we run this outing better as an assistant? It's a pretty common job, to how do I run this business better? How do I run this entire operation better? How do I lead this team better? And and so As I accomplished one thing, it was always what was the next thing that my my job and my position allowed me the opportunity to kind of push into that realm.

5:23 Paul Salter: Interesting because you climbed so fast as a direct result of the results you were producing, the success you were creating because of these intangibles you possessed, of course, alongside your work ethic. When you think back to, you know, one rung of the ladder higher and higher, and you finally achieve the position of GM, what did you expect to feel having, you know, crossed that goalpost? Kyle Holmes: I didn't have expectations on an internal feeling, but I will share a story with you. and it dates back to my time when I was in Minnesota. so I moved from Sleepy Hollow Country Club. It's one of the top courses in the country, north of New York City, to take a job in a small town thirty miles south of Minneapolis, Minnesota. the gentleman who hired me, I knew growing up or growing up and and so it was There was a comfortable nature there and of course it was, you know, more responsibility and things like that. And so, you know, it all kind of made sense. and my wife and I were talking about, you know, started a family and metro New York City, probably not as as easy as doing it in the Midwest, which is where I grew up. and so he left that job late October. And I'll never forget this was So it an interesting moment in my life. so we were about to close. He just left. I was the only I was the highest ranking person on the golf staff. And so I it was a semi private golf course that had a board. And so the board president approached me and and very clearly and very kindly told me I wasn't qualified and I wasn't considered for the position. They were gonna put out a post and and kind of, you know, start a more of a national search or at least a regional search. And I remember going back into the office and thinking, okay, I'm just gonna sit here and wait until they hire the guy and if he has his own people or we don't gel well together, essentially I felt like I was waiting to get fired. and so but then after a week or so of doing that, I realized that I had access to everything that the golf course was doing. Financials, you know, what was working, what wasn't. And so I decided, well, why don't I at least see how we can make this business better? You know, I'm gonna l I'm gonna dig in, I'm gonna put together a business plan, a five year model. And so I worked on that for a couple of weeks and then it was early December of that year, so about two months after he had told me I wasn't being considered. And I had I had a plan together and just asked if I could present it to the board. You know, didn't ask for the job, just said I'd you know, this will be useful you for you guys moving forward.

8:16 Kyle Holmes: And so I went in, presented it, they asked me questions, I had answers, they asked me to step out. So I was just sitting in a room. It's like eight PM, you know, dark, middle of the winter, waiting for thirteen people to discuss what I had just said. And he came out and offered me the job. And I'll never forget, I wasn't filled with elation. Certainly I was happy. My first thought was, Now I have to do this. I just spent so much time giving them a plan. Paul Salter: And what Kyle Holmes: of how we could execute to make the the golf course more profitable into the future, that I never thought about the fact that I may have to execute it. So that and that I mean that's where I that's where I landed was I have to do it now.

8:59 Paul Salter: So what I hear is somebody essentially told you, no, you can't do this. Don't even think about it. We're not even considering you. You use that as motivation. I'm gonna prove you wrong. And maybe it wasn't that stark or strong in the at the get-go, but there was at least a curiosity that you pursue to present and put everything together, which highlights, you know, you have a big belief in yourself. Now you've bet on yourself. shit, out of nowhere, it's been approved. You've been offered the job. And the first thing that comes to mind is I have to. Do this. What did that feel like? Kyle Holmes: it was unsettling, in the moment, you know, to to kind of wrap my head around that. And somebody who's was is not a big sharer. you know, I I I carried that with me, you know, for a few days as I kind of processed it. And then like most things that I've done in my life, I decided you have one of two options. You can either half ass this, fail at it. and lose your job after a year or maybe even a half a year, depending on how bad it goes. Or you can just do it. And if you don't know how to do it, ask people around you if they can show you how they know how to do it. And and so I chose the latter and and just put my head down and and just went back to work. It was either I was going to succeed or I was going to fail. I only had two roads in my mind.

10:23 Paul Salter: What held you back from sharing the news with people in your inner circle? Kyle Holmes: You know, I've always been kind of a private person. and so i especially when I was younger, I there was a part of me that I always thought that I knew best. Which as I've aged and and gone through life more and more, you know, I've certainly started to rely on my close circle of people, to help guide me through things. But at that time, you know, I was twenty five years old. Everything was new. Was expecting, you know, our daughter was coming in a couple of months, firstborn and it was just this is what men do. They they internalize, they they rationalize inside their own head and and we solve problems and so who needs advice when you can just think long and hard about it and the answer will come. Which I do know now is is not a process that I live by anymore. But at the time that's how I felt.

11:24 Paul Salter: Where do you learn that from? Kyle Holmes: the process of internalizing. You know, I I mean if I if if I have really have to boil it down, I would probably say I learned it from watching my father. Not to say that's how he operated, but that's how I viewed him. Was he was a problem solver. You know, whether it was i an issue at the golf course or, you know, a a pump blew or some irrigation problems. Anything that he was doing. I just would it I mean he could fix anything, he could he could, you know, work on equipment in the off season. It just looked like he always knew the answers, and I never saw him ask anyone else. And so I think I just kind of adopted that mindset. not knowing whether it was true or not, but at the I wasn't looking at it that deeply. I was just looking at I have a father who's really, really loved by the community.

12:18 Paul Salter: Yeah. Kyle Holmes: by the people he works with, the quality of work he does, never complain, just constantly got stuff done. And so I think that's how I how I viewed myself as an adult. Paul Salter: Yeah. Paul Salter: It's interesting, and perhaps you can help me reconcile this. On one hand, you're saying I'm a very private person. Totally can relate to that myself. You struggle to, you know, share successes, which is which one would think could be the easiest part to share, not all the struggles and challenges. Yet simultaneously, this private person. Is accelerating up the ladder in these positions that have a lot of spotlight and eyeballs on them to the point of purchasing a golf club. You're I imagine you're the man that everybody recognizes the club all these years later. So help me reconcile. There's this very private person of you aspiring to be in positions that have a bigger spotlight on him.

13:20 Kyle Holmes: I never thought about the spotlight that came with it. it it was all about just achieving goals that I had set for myself in my head. Things that I always felt like I was meant for. so a good example is when my business partner and I bought the golf course last January. you know, we had changes that we were gonna make on a small scale. 'cause both of us had been op you know, I had been operating the business side, he had been operating the ground side for many, many years prior to us buying it. We tried as hard as we possibly could not to tell the press or anyone in the community that we had bought it. We made it about thirty days, and then a lo a local newspaper, you know, was running sale deeds, however they find stuff. And I got a call and and they told me and I and I said no comment, you know, we we don't wanna discuss this and she said, Well, I'm gonna run this story whether you say anything or not. So provided some context behind it. but I think that just goes into the nature of who I am. a and thankfully for me, my business partner as well. That's how he is too. You know, we we we don't do any of this for the gratification of how people view us. We do it 'cause we love it. We love the people we work with. We love the community. You know, we certainly love the golf course, Quail Ridge, at its foundation in So anything that came with that was not something that we were doing to seek out. It's been a by product of what has happened.

14:55 Paul Salter: Five opportunities in four years, earning the GM position, purchasing a club. Did you ever stop and allow yourself to enjoy the achievements and accomplishments? Kyle Holmes: Yeah, for one week. so I w I left n I left the golf club in Minnesota to to move back to Michigan 'cause we found out we were having twins. and it felt like hey, we're gonna have three children, we nobody around us, we have no family around us, you know. I'll I'll take anything in Michigan that is within w what I you know, what I do. which led me to Quail Ridge Golf Club. and at that time so I I spent two thousand fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. And it was one of those things where, you know, things were going well. I love the people I worked with. Tim, who I who I bought the golf course with, he was the superintendent before I got there. We had a great relationship. E everything on paper looked great. But my family was growing and I started to kind of feel like I was stagnating. You know, that they're I I had turned the place around, the place was successful. what more could I do? And so the Harbor Shores job came open. and so going into 2018, they were hosting the 2018 senior PGA championship, which for me is like the the pinnacle of what I do. You know, I get to I get to be a GM at a golf course that's hosting a major championship, you know, national television. all eyes, all that kind of stuff. And I got there and th the place was in disarray. I mean they had and I didn't know this through the job process or the hiring process, but they had gotten rid of all the department heads. So when I got there, the only person that was hired before me was the superintendent. I didn't have a head pro, I didn't have assistants, didn't have a head chef, didn't have a food and beverage director, marketing director, I didn't have anything in place. And so it was that while preparing. Which was wildly stressful. You know, like eighty, ninety, ninety five hour weeks, like waking up before my kids woke up, getting home after they were sleeping, not seeing them for multiple days. And then the championship happened. And I feel like that was the one week where I got to kind of step back and look around and go, We did it. Like we this is all the hard work that we all just put into this. And for me it was all the hard work I'd put into my entire career.

17:12 Paul Salter: Mm. Paul Salter: Yeah. Kyle Holmes: Then I got to see it. You know, I get to see my my childhood idols show up and and play competitively and attend functions like a champions dinner, you know, sit next to Rocco Mediate and having conversations with Tom Lehman and yeah, I like to me it was I I did I did get to step back and enjoy, even though we still worked really, really hard that week. I still got to take those moments and like hop a golf cart that had my name on it and drive wherever I wanted to go. Paul Salter: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

18:01 Kyle Holmes: you know, I could I could have access to anything I needed to have access to. and then it was over and that all went away. Paul Salter: Well, it's interesting, like you've been able to pinpoint one moment in particular. You've been able to enjoy your hard work. And there's this theme developing where you're just climbing, climbing. And you said it best, and I don't want to misquote you, but more or less you were in the position before there and you kind of felt like you had achieved all you could achieve. There wasn't much more you could do. You had turned the club around. I hear that you're just looking for a one accomplishment, one bigger goal after the next. What are you trying to prove to yourself by constantly chasing bigger and bigger?

18:44 Kyle Holmes: think throughout that arc up and through harbor shores I was trying to prove that I could get to whatever the highest level that I could get to. Whether that some of it's probably grown up in a small town, you know, where a lot of people stay there, you know, and and they raise families and and things, you know, are how they envision them. where like at a young age, I used to always Paul Salter: Why? Kyle Holmes: envision myself moving away. You know, it would make my parents wake me up like driving down to Florida when we would go through big cities. You know, 'cause we know we have tall buildings in in Gaylor, Michigan. And so, you know, driving through Atlanta for sure in the middle of the night, like I would just be in awe at how big the buildings were. and so I think part of it was just like I wanna get out and I wanna I wanna do. I wanna make something. and some of it I think is Just an internal never fully done chasing whatever is out there. although I will say I'm I'm much better at that now as I've gotten older.

20:00 Paul Salter: Will you ever be satisfied? Kyle Holmes: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I'm I think I'm in that stretch now where you know and and as you say that, I guess one of the things and I don't know where this comes from. Honestly I don't because I worked for my dad when I was a kid and then I had internships and college jobs and, you know, assistant jobs that, you know, things were going well. Was never quote unquote on the chopping block. But I never liked the feeling of having s my fate in somebody else's hands. You know, if if if somebody for whatever reason that I worked for was not happy with what I was doing or, you know, we had a miscommunication and they had an ego or whatever it was, I mean they could just take it from me. They could just say, you don't have a job anymore. And so when we bought the golf course, that went away. And so I'll never have that. And I think that was a defining moment for me to really Paul Salter: Mm-hmm.

21:01 Kyle Holmes: not have that just like way back in some deep recess in my brain of somebody can't take this from me. You know, if I don't do the job I'm supposed to and the golf course suffers, you know, I guess a bank could take it from us. but I believe in my abilities and in the golf course that we have and in the job that Tim does that that that will never be a thing. and and so that that has really kind of shifted my focus into Paul Salter: Yeah. Kyle Holmes: I wanna continue to pursue different avenues, but I can pursue them knowing that if they don't work out, you know, whether I'm looking at different golf courses or or looking at this venture or that, if it doesn't ever pan out it's it's not gonna make or break what I have to do to get by through the daily.

21:47 Paul Salter: What I've experienced in listening to you and preparing is that pursuit has been at such an aggressive pace and it served you well. Looking back, how much of your ambition, your tenacity came from genuinely loving the pursuit, or how much came from needing to prove yourself or to earn validation to feel enough? Kyle Holmes: I I would say the former, for sure. You know, just the general pursuit of of wanting to accomplish my goals and be successful. you know, I mean there was a there was a period when I was younger where, you know, my head I used to I used to wish I was older because then people would take me more seriously. You know, and the the the golf industry in general, you know, when you get to Paul Salter: Tell me more about that.

22:41 Kyle Holmes: you know, kind of the GM level and, you know, bigger head pro jobs and things like that, which is kinda where my mind started when I was younger. They always seem to be like in their fifties and you know, and then I come in and in my head I'm like, I can do the job you're doing in my twenties easily. But I looked like I was in my twenties. You know, and so I used to just I used to think like gosh it would be so nice to to leave to be a little bit older, you know, or to have some grey hair. Which I have now. I'd like to say that's partly because of the pursuit and also because I have five children. You know. but yeah, that was just one of those things that I think some people have thoughts about random one offs and you know, it it it it wasn't a driver for me, but it certainly was, you know, being older would be nice because then people would take me more seriously.

23:37 Paul Salter: I hear respect. You'd earn more respect. Okay. I want to circle back to something you said earlier. You said that one of the biggest accelerators in your career, aside from your ambition, was your willingness to ask questions, your willingness to learn to remain curious. What made you so comfortable admitting, I don't know the answer? Teach me. Kyle Holmes: Yeah. Yeah. Kyle Holmes: Mm-hmm. Kyle Holmes: I felt like I didn't have the time to learn the things that other people maybe that was their career path. and so a as an assistant I at the time I felt like it was an unfortunate thing, but it turned out to be, you know, a great thing. I w I worked for a couple of people that I I didn't particularly enjoy working for. I didn't like the way they treated me, the way they treated other people, you know, and so in the back of my head I was like, if I ever get to a position where people work for me, I'll never treat them that way. And and and I have remained true to that core value. and then when I got to Norfield and I went from being an assistant who only focused on day to day golf as somebody who was backing up the main guy to overseeing everything. It's like I don't know what goes into crafting a menu or when our head chef orders food, how he comes up with his specials, you know, what does it take to to book a wedding, to run a wedding, to all all the nuances. and there was no way I had enough time to learn it. And so I just why don't I just go in and ask? You know? And so I did. and particularly the head chef when I was in Minnesota. He's gone on to open his own restaurant and I mean he was such a talent when I was there. And at at that time, I mean I knew his food was good, but he was about my age. and just like one of those younger talents that was like trying to prove himself. And so we really, really hit it off and it was just I was just a sponge.

25:38 Paul Salter: And I love that. And that curiosity, that willingness to learn, is such a superpower that, for whatever reason, a lot of people struggle to maintain as they continue to have more success. For you, achieving such significant success at a relatively young age, especially in the industry you're in, you already believed you had the intangibles and the skills to do the job that a seasoned pro had. Where did you struggle to believe that you belonged or they are deserving and capable of having the opportunity. Kyle Holmes: how fast things went, probably. You know, a l a little bit, you know, kinda getting into the industry during the recession, two thousand eight, nine, you know, it was kind of slim pickings. Golf courses before that, you know, had bigger staffs and they were cutting back and so there was more people in the in the industry and there was there was less available jobs. And so I think there was a a weight put on how long you've been doing this, you know. Where'd you go to school? And and thankfully I went to a really good school, at least in my opinion. Grand Valley in West Michigan. but being from northern Michigan and trying to get jobs at, you know, a top one hundred course just outside New York City. Like people in New York don't know what northern Michigan is. At least the people I met didn't, you know. and so it it it really was like I I I was just constantly and I had to prove it. I had to I had to learn how to talk to people in the in the right way. I had to learn how to talk to people with a lot of wealth when I didn't grow up around wealth. you know, I had to deal with being in a position where somebody's gonna blame and and scold and and use their their position, power, wealth, not necessarily in a work setting, but just the people that we were serving and and take it. And so those are just all those traits that you kinda learn along the way.

27:39 Paul Salter: You've used the phrase or a variation of it several times already. I was just trying to prove it, prove to myself, prove to my dad, prove to people to earn respect. Internally, what did that feel like? What did it sound like just constantly in the pursuit of trying to prove yourself? Kyle Holmes: It felt normal and not at the same time because my I have one of those minds that's hard to turn off. You know, and so when things are great, I'm constantly thinking of different ideas and whether or not they would work and you know, kind of running through my head, what would it take to do this or that or the other thing? And i at the same time, you know, th it it can be quite the burden because when you want to turn it off, it's hard to turn it off. And so, you know, I I I wasn't a great sleeper, which is probably a you know, something that caught up to me as I got older. and just I I would replay conversations in my head or I would I would have conversations in my head with people before I had Which which is not a good way to approach a conversation, you know, because i if Paul and I are having a conversation an hour from now, you know, ten years ago, I may have already had it in my head with your answers back to me. You know. And then it doesn't go that way and i everything kinda shifts and you gotta you kinda gotta pivot. so yeah, I've I've I've had a very active mind.

29:18 Paul Salter: And I appreciate you sharing that. It's incredibly relatable. And what I heard is there was periods of rumination, periods of what we would call anticipatory anxiety, or planning these conversations out in your mind way well in advance of them happening. What do you think those strategies were trying to protect you from? Or how were they helping you? Might be the better way to phrase it. Kyle Holmes: Helping me in hindsight, I don't think they were. I I think it was more preparing me to, you know, have things not go the way that I hoped they would. and so I think it was a defense mechanism for sure. That it was, hey, if I can have this conversation and I can plot it out and I can speak for you even though you're not in the room and I can control the narrative, everything will work out. It'll be great. But it was also just kind of like I I was I was trying to I was trying to will it to happen in case the thing I didn't want to happen was going to happen. So yeah, I I think there was a lot of defensiveness in that internally.

30:31 Paul Salter: I think that's really well said. I admire your honesty and vulnerability there. And what's fascinating, at least from my perspective, is all of those actions of your mind are designed to help you, just like you alluded into and described so well. Yet Underneath it, the reason that they're occurring is there's still this younger version of you trying to prove himself, trying to prove himself. So you have to be ready to cover your bases for any potential obstacle. So your mind goes into overdrive, trying to claim just some extra degree of control to help you navigate the unknown. Kyle Holmes: Yeah. I mean that that is a perfect way to put it. I I I think that's how I was hoping to explain it is is how you explained it. I that it's exactly how I feel like the majority of my twenties and my up until my mid to even getting closer to my late thirties, that that's how I operated.

31:22 Paul Salter: But I hear then as a result, it definitely began to impact your sleep, which then is gonna boy is gonna transition into impacting your energy, even how you show up at work at home. Tell us about that toll as you started getting less and less sleep because of the propensity to ruminate, to overthink, to deal with the future ahead of time. What did that feel like? What did it cost? Kyle Holmes: Yeah, I mean it it cost me a marriage, for sure. and it cost me time with my kids, because I I was comfortable at work. I was good at work, you know. people relied on me at work. And then you go home and you have five young children. a and at the time, you know, when this was going on I I had a baby, I had a toddler, I had twins who were speaking but not fully developed. and a daughter who was just an absolute spitfire of now a young woman. and so you tried to juggle all that and and I took the easy way out sometimes and and I just stayed at work because, you know, my my ex wife, wife at the time, was a stay at home mom. So the kids were taken care of. And I was in a scenario where I knew I was gonna be, you know, needed, good at it, comfortable. you know, and then you come home and and you kind of inherit what a whatever stage we're in at that time. You know, maybe it's getting ready for dinner, going into bath and bed and things like that. And you get through that, you know, and and my ex wife is exhausted, wants to go to bed, and my mind's now just like settling to this new shifted narrative. and so, you know, I would I would have a cocktail at night. I'd I'd have a couple cocktails at night because it'd help me fall asleep. You know, and then you'd but then I'd have to be up early in the morning and and have those long days where you're needed. And so you you kind of play that cycle of like this is not the way that you should be operating. But I was always trying to seek out what was comfortable to me. and as I was doing that.

33:37 Paul Salter: Mm. Kyle Holmes: y you know, and I and I can't speak for her in this scenario. but we were just going in different directions. You know, it's she's a stay at home mom devoted to the children and and in raising them and I'm really good at what I do. So I'm very career focused, you know, and those are very divergent paths. And if you're not making time to communicate about it, communicate about it and I feel this way and you feel that way, you know. You end up in a divorce. Paul Salter: You said you were prone to taking the easy way out. You stayed at work to avoid what I hear to be the difficulty at home. Tell us more. What was difficult or uncomfortable at home for you that you were avoiding?

34:30 Kyle Holmes: Yeah, I don't know if difficulty was the right word because I love being a dad. I love my kids in in all their different ages and and where we were at. it just it was it was hard to to know what the plan was because they're children. You know. If I'm at work I I know what I know what's coming. I I know you know, who's gonna ask me something or or we're gonna discuss this or or this thing is coming up, you know, I've a very calendar focused and and understand that like these this is how my day's gonna look. And then you go home and it may be a great day and you know the kids are outside running around in the yard playing with the dog, dinner's on the stove, we lead into bed and bath, you know, they go to bed early, it's a great night. But sometimes it's not that way, you know. Sometimes it's been a whale of a day for some of the kids and somebody fell off their bike and he's got a scraped knee and you know, didn't have because this happened, didn't have time to get to the grocery store, so we're not sure what dinner is and it it was just like the chaos of the unknown, I think, was what it was for me.

35:42 Paul Salter: What I heard then is you had control at work. Control created predictability, comfort, familiarity at home, even though there was so much love and enjoyment from your part, it was unknown because it was unpredictable. You couldn't control what had happened or what was going to happen. And that lack of control was the challenge that you wrestled with confronting on a regular basis. So your way to deal with that was to stay at work, which by all accounts could be a very noble pursuit. Kyle Holmes: Mm-hmm. Kyle Holmes: Yeah. Yeah. And I and I will say, you know, now that we're, you know, almost a year out from from, you know, the end of the marriage and and things like that, is it was the best thing for both of us. for various different reasons. I know why for me why it was so good is because it it put me in a position to to face reality where where I had to spend a lot of time alone without my kids. where I didn't have, you know, the predictability of work because it's winter, you know, and and there's I mean, there's things to do, but there's nothing that's like all day long. And so I spent so much time thinking and, you know, why didn't this work? You know, and and then you get those answers, you think you get those answers, like, okay, well this makes sense and and so now I'm in a position where like I have my kids almost half the time. And when I have I I look forward to it. And I I don't go into work. I I spend time in the quote unquote chaos of the unknown of what it might be like because I feel like I'm making up for lost time. And it's it's just me and the five of them. and it's made me a better man. It's made me a better father for sure. and it's made me better at work. And and I think that's part of life is You get faced with these scenarios, you don't always make the right choices. But the people who can learn from them, grow from them, you know, can can forge a new path that a year ago, if you would have told me that I'd be where I am right now, you know, I wouldn't have believed it because I hadn't gone through it yet.

38:00 Paul Salter: Take me back, something you said stood out to me. You had to face reality. What truths were you denying or trying to convince yourself weren't truths as you were on the precipice of divorce? Kyle Holmes: That our marriage was probably headed to failure four years ago, not when it actually happened. and and one of the hardest things that just for me, and I and I think you can appreciate this given the fact that I've explained to you, you know, how I pursue things and and things like that, my marriage failed. That play I mean plain and simple. You know, and and I'm not used to failing at things. and so that was the biggest reality I had to face. There's no undoing it. I it it felt in the moment as I was kinda going through and and rebuilding, I was ashamed. Absolutely. I was embarrassed. I didn't want to talk about it. I didn't want to be around people, you know. I wasn't seeking counsel from, you know, my parents or my close group of friends who I knew were just Paul Salter: Mm.

39:16 Kyle Holmes: waiting, you know, I mean they were there and and they would have been happy to provide any kind of in advice or insight that they could have. but I I think that I had to experience in and fully carry the weight of being ashamed and embarrassed before I could begin the reprocess the process of rebuilding. Paul Salter: What was harder for you to accept that your marriage was ending or that you couldn't make it not end? Kyle Holmes: That I couldn't make it not end. For sure. Yeah. I mean, it was ending before it ended. And in you know, from an internal perspective, I I think I I knew that and on some level I accepted it. but the fact that I couldn't stop it no matter what, and in in it didn't need to be stopped at that point. I mean it best for for both parties for sure. but that doesn't change how you think about things and how you feel about things.

40:24 Paul Salter: It's interesting because as I've gotten to know you, you know, off camera and now on, of course, you know, you're a fixer, you're a problem solver, you are ambitious, you try to do everything you can to achieve success. And as everything I've heard so far, take everything, everyone along for the ride with you. You're a provider, you're a protector. What did my marriage failing start to mean about yourself in your own mind? Kyle Holmes: that I'm not perfect at anything I do, you know, and and that it that's okay. and the the biggest thing that you can take from anything that doesn't succeed in life, and I've had other failures in life, I'm not not just my marriage, but you have to learn from I mean you have to you have to reflect on it, you have to figure out what role did I play in this scenario. that made this happen. It you know, and it it it's it's not always one sided, you know. it can be like that in a business transaction, it can be like that in a conversation, it can be like that in marriage. but what role did I play? And what what could I what could I do differently moving forward in this next phase of my life as a father, as somebody you know, who's with somebody as somebody who wants to continue to pursue business pursuits, things like that. and had I not taken the time to self reflect and and really kinda wear the feelings that I had and started to rebuild, I I wouldn't have been ready for any of those. You know, being a single father of five, Just that, as as as the biggest one. Like there's no way I could I could do it to the level I do it now had I not gone through what I went through.

42:27 Paul Salter: What are you doing now to make reflection a more consistent part of your routine rather than waiting for some catastrophic event to force you to reflect? Kyle Holmes: Talking about it to the people that I trust, without a doubt. and I, for whatever reason, have been unbelievably blessed with really good people in my life. and and I've always known that. But I've as things have gotten harder for me, I've just, you know, internalized and and kind of, you know, taken a step back and and not reached out. whereas now You know, I I I have a friend from high school. there's a group of four of us total. but one in particular. That we talk on the phone like once every week to ten days, usually for two hours. And anyone who knows me, I do not like talking on the phone. I I don't even like it from a business standpoint. you know, and and talking to my partner now, my girlfriend, and being as honest as I can be about this is This is what my life was like. This is what I'm trying to do, you know. W no fear of judgment. my mother, who I also happens to be a counselor, you know, doesn't counsel me, but very much is one of those people who, you know, is a she's a great listener. Just a great listener. NOTE - Please delete this section (there was a lag during the recording) Paul Salter: You said something too earlier that you allowed yourself to finally f yeah.

43:57 Paul Salter: And I'll fix that little lag in there, don't worry about that. so you actually you said something interesting. I'm curious, how has your relationship with being vulnerable changed over this process? Kyle Holmes: Yeah, I safe. Kyle Holmes: it's made everything in my life better. Every single facet of my life has improved by being more vulnerable, by being more open, by being more direct in if a question is asked to me and I know that the answer might not reflect well on me, but it is how my life went, just saying it. You know, because as as you get older If you're gonna meet somebody or if you're gonna foster relationships with people you're close with and you're gonna withhold information, it it's not going to help you in the long run.

44:51 Paul Salter: Pause right there. What were you withholding from your wife, or maybe being dishonest about with yourself in those previous years? Kyle Holmes: The fact that our marriage wasn't what I thought it was, that I felt like I had to be somebody that I that I wasn't, you know, different families, different ideologies and and always kind of feeling like I I was accepted but also judged. and so, you know, that another thing about, you know, coming home into the chaos of the unknown. is I felt like I had was a different person at home than I was at work. and I and I felt like the people that worked with me and the people that know me really, really well would tell you that if they got to see both sides, the true version of me was the version at work. It was who I am, how I grew up, what I believe in, you know, the f the way that I speak to people and I lead people and and the way that I operate. And inside my home I it was not that way. You know, it was more I wasn't there much, so I didn't really set the rules, you know, discipline of the kids or the vision of how we want them to grow up. Like I I always felt like I took a back burner to that. and so I decided to be a different person. It's kind of a hard way to operate.

46:23 Paul Salter: can imagine. And then hearing at the at the workplace how great of a leader and effective communicator you are, like you wouldn't be where you are today if you didn't possess those skills. Why didn't it feel safe to be authentically you at home? Kyle Holmes: I think over the years I as I tried I would I would get enough feedback indirectly that it wasn't being accepted in the way that made me feel comfortable. You know, i and and a lot of it too was it was just poor communication. You know, as I'm finding out, I actually am much more of a I'd like to talk things out rather than pretend like they're not happening. Paul Salter: Hm.

47:08 Kyle Holmes: But I spent fourteen years of a marriage pretending like things weren't happening when all as I wanted to do was talk about Paul Salter: I'm curious then. Something that keeps coming back to me is professionally, one of your superpowers was curiosity, this commitment to asking questions, to learning when you didn't understand something, you just simply asked. As your marriage began drifting, did you approach it with that same curiosity and desire to understand what wasn't working? Kyle Holmes: No. I didn't. No, and I and I think kind of thinking about this in real time, I I think the the fear of rejection was was at the very top of everything. If I approach this with curiosity and I ask questions and and I get the answers that I don't want. I don't think I was prepared for what that rejection may feel like, which as we talked about not that long ago, it it being on I mean it's gonna come to a head. Right? Like it's gonna and it did. It just you know, I felt like I probably delayed it by several years by just not addressing it.

48:24 Paul Salter: Now it's interesting in a lot of our pre recording conversations and prep work together, it was obvious that a theme in your life is the importance of family. And I'm not even just talking about, you know, your five kids and being a father, but it goes to your relationship with your parents, your extended family. And if we go back to those early years where, you know, your kids are young and maybe the f the last few aren't even around yet, when your career was accelerating, what did being a good Has been mean to you during that time? Kyle Holmes: It meant everything. I mean it it was if you would have asked me in that moment, would I put paw would I push pause on all my aspirations if it meant that I could be the very best father and I would be given all the the greatest wisdom to perform those tasks, I would take that route. Absolutely. and I I think that stems back to the fact that I I had a wonderful childhood. I have two great parents who love each other. and loved me and my brother and sister and you know, they were always there. They they weren't yellers. They it it was it was as great of a childhood as you could imagine. And so I always wanted that for my children. And Paul Salter: So so marriage meant everything to you then. There's a period of life where you said you're working ninety, ninety five hours a week, up before the kids are up home after they're in bed. What did being a good father mean to you during that busy season?

49:56 Kyle Holmes: It felt like I I didn't have enough time in the day to be successful at both. and but there was always that I was the sole provider and had I not spent that time, especially leading into a major championship where you're only judged on whether or not it goes well or not. You're either gonna be successful or you're not. I mean I had to be successful and so I every single day I was consciously choosing to be as successful at work as I could because if I wasn't, I may not have a job and I may not be able to support at that time, you know, if we had three kids and another one that was due in the fall.

50:40 Paul Salter: So today, how do you make sense of the fact that there was a version of you who felt his marriage and being a father was absolutely everything? Yet he was consciously choosing every day to pour himself into his career at the expense of time with them. Kyle Holmes: I think that it is how life is meant to be for everyone. You have to experience the good and the bad, you know, the the peaks and the hardships to grow from them to become who you're supposed to be. And so I I try not to reflect too much in the past. not to say that I don't. I certainly have spent a lot of time. but on a daily basis, I'm I'm not referring to the past. and I just I keep coming back to the conclusion that I wouldn't be who I am today had I not gone through the things I went through. I I wouldn't be able I I just I I wouldn't be able to be somebody who can s successfully buy a golf course, run it, manage it, be a be a single dad to five kids.

51:40 Paul Salter: Do you think it's yeah, please finish that. Kyle Holmes: you know, meet somebody new in life and and go through, you know, that dating process and and the joys that have come from that. Rekindle relationships that I kinda had let drift with close friends, you know, brother and sister who have always been there and we and we've always chatted when we've chatted. but, you know, all those relationships have have just grown exponentially. And I I there's no way I would have been ready for any of that had I not experienced what I did.

52:25 Paul Salter: Do you think it's possible to deeply love something and still fail to prioritize it? Kyle Holmes: Yeah, I do. Paul Salter: And I really appreciate your answer that you just shared previously. There are there's not enough time in the day. How do we do it all? Well, we make a decision, we get feedback, and more often than not, we're gonna get some harsh feedback, we're gonna have some quote failures, mistakes, or hard learning lessons. And if we choose to push onward and truly s pause, reflect, and learn, there are greater things on the other side. And it seems like you've really embodied. slowing down to reflect to learn while never taking your foot off the gas to keep moving forward.

53:07 Kyle Holmes: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really good accurate description. yeah, I a good example is you know, running a golf course in Michigan is seasonal. You know, so you open in March, don't really get busy, busy until mid May, and then it's go, go, go, go, go until early October, you know, and they kinda drift down. And so at that time, you know, I I had my kids when I had but they're in school. You know, and so like I'd I'd have overnight for a couple of days during the week. I'd drop off at seven thirty. I'd be at work at eight. Nothing changed. But I knew that summer was coming. And when they get out of school, they have no they're not going to school anymore, you know. but the golf course is at its peak busy. I mean, every day there's some kind of event, there's some kind of wedding, there's some kind of outing. There's so much going on. And I told Tim, my business partner, back in probably mid April, said I feel really, really strongly that when I have my kids, I don't want to work. I have my laptop, I can check on things, I can answer emails, I can spend time when they're sleeping, I I can I can maintain the business, but I really, really need to spend time with my kids. And so I did I did that all summer. They just went back to school on Tuesday. So two days ago. And so, it it was hard. It was certainly hard, but I was very, very convicted in the fact that I had to I couldn't just say that I was learning and experiencing how to do these different things. I actually had to do them and I had I I had to show it. and it was a great summer.

54:55 Paul Salter: Hmm. What belief in you shifted most that took you from a place of working seventy, eighty, ninety hours a week while you had young kids to putting up such a strong boundary that when I have my kids, I'm not working. Kyle Holmes: So it's probably gonna sound weird, but I'll give you a little context. I distinctly remember my father's fortieth birthday. They had a big party, you know, bunch of friends over. we had like a overlook upstairs where you could, you know, sit at the rail and you could see what was going on downstairs. and I remember my mom telling my brother and and sister and I, you know, you guys have to stay upstairs, you know. This is an adult party for over the hill was kind of the thing back then. And I turned forty in two months. And I have four boys. And I remember how impactful my childhood watching my father was. And I look at my four boys and I'm like, I have to be the standard that my dad set for me. And I I don't think that I fully have had been before I got divorced. But now I have this second opportunity where I get and it's just me. They're only looking at me. And so for whatever reason, I'm not I'm not fearful of turning forty. I don't feel like I'm getting old. But it was such a such a memory that's so core to me growing up. That I feel like it could be core to my children. And that's that is this time. I have five, seven, eleven, eleven, and then a thirteen year old daughter. So they're They're in that like memory making hopefully they'll grow up someday and and tell their kids stories about what it was like to, you know, watch their dad. And I want them to be the stories of the stories that I tell about how I was watching my dad.

56:56 Paul Salter: I really like that. I'm curious as you reflect, I mean, twenty twenty-five was, by my words, a hell of a year for you. Professionally, one would say incredible success. I mean, you finally closed on the purchase of the course with your business partner, Tim, and you also went through what I hear to be one of, if not the most challenging years of your life, going through the divorce, being forced to sit with and confront. Kyle Holmes: Yeah. Kyle Holmes: Yeah. Yeah. Paul Salter: some of your shortcomings, beliefs, and patterns of behaving that were no longer serving you. I'm just curious in me reflecting that to you, like how do you now make sense of I had so much professional success at the same time I had a lot of personal hardship.

57:39 Kyle Holmes: Yeah, I I look I look at twenty twenty five as the hardest year that I've gone through. even though the golf course was closed on, and and got to kinda see that through and and transition into that role as owner. but I never really cared about the fact that I owned it. You know, I was still going to operate it and the and all the employees that worked for Tim and I were still gonna be there and so we owed it to them. And so it just I mean, we like I didn't do anything after we bought it. There was no celebration. There was no like big dinner of like, can't believe we made it. so I I I reflect more on twenty twenty five as just a really, really hard but necessary year for whatever is to come, you know, final quarter of twenty twenty six and beyond.

58:36 Paul Salter: Would you trade purchasing the course or some of the professional success you've had to avoid going through the divorce? Kyle Holmes: No. I wouldn't no, because part of that reflection has has made me realize that it was probably shakier than either one of us would have wanted to admit for far longer. but also I'm not mad or sad that it happened because I have five kids out of it and who are my world and they're you know, they're all healthy and and good human beings. so No, I I I wouldn't trade it because I I had to live it. I had to go through it. I I had to get what I got out of it while also experiencing the hardships that came with it.

59:28 Paul Salter: Now you're in a completely new role. I mean, it's not completely new. You're in year two, but now you're the owner. Now more than you ever have been before. You're responsible for everything and everybody to an extent. And of course, you delegate, you surround yourself with the right people. One thing you shared with me earlier, I want to reflect back to you, that I think is brilliant and I'm very intrigued to learn more. You said one of your commitments now is making sure I am as good as I possibly can be every single moment of my life. Because so many people count on my skills to earn a livelihood. Kyle Holmes: Yeah. Yeah. And I like that. It it it does not scare me. it never has. For as long as I've been in charge, I've I've always known that having people count on me is not a stressor. It it I I don't go to bed thinking, How am I gonna manage this? What if I make a mistake? for me it is fuel. It is a way to continue to drive to innovate and be more successful. Paul Salter: Tell us more about that.

1:00:33 Kyle Holmes: for the business so all those people, you know, can can pay their bills and support their families. and so I I don't have any concerns about that. I I think that has been core to who I am for as long as I've been in a position to recognize it is that I I like knowing that I can be the person that other people need to rely on. And it it kind of goes back to that. I never wanted to rely on somebody else to tell me whether or not I had a job. You know, because that took it away from me. And that that's something as as a leader. And I'm I'm a very you know, I've had a lot of people tell me that I'm a a type A type of person when it comes to leading a business. But personality wise I am not at all. You know, I am very much a conversationalist. I check in with people. I know everyone's name. You know, we have conversations whether they're Paul Salter: Yeah.

1:01:22 Paul Salter: Hmm. Kyle Holmes: serious or about life, just because I I didn't grow into this role. I didn't pursue these dreams so I could wield power. So I could tell other people that I'm in control of them. None of that matters to me. I just want to do good work and help as many people as I can while I do it. Paul Salter: What happens inside of you when you don't feel like you're at your best? Kyle Holmes: sp I spend time, you know, if I can, reflecting on you know, maybe I just didn't get enough sleep or I took the kids up north to see their grandparents and I was gone for four days and I feel like a you know, a couple of things went a little sideways when I was gone. You know, we talk about it. How can we make things better the next time I go because I plan on continuing to do that. so I I definitely do feel it, but it it doesn't bring any kind of like noticeable feeling. It's it's not like a there's not a boiling or like a you know, my heart doesn't race more. I don't feel like I carry around stress. I d I just really enjoy time to process. Which is something that I I'm figuring out about myself is when something big happens, whether it's big at work or in life, getting that time to go through it in my head is what I need. in

1:03:01 Paul Salter: Tell us more. What does that tangibly look like for you? Like how do you execute building out time to process? Kyle Holmes: Well, the fact that I don't have my kids full time gives me that built in time in the evenings, which I've found very valuable. and then so a good example is a w a week ago, our head golf professional at Quail accepted a job in more of a career track that his passions lie for all the right reasons for his family. You know, we're super happy and proud for him. But it changes the immediate here and now of you know, what's the next couple months look like? Yeah, we're gonna have to fill his shoes, which are are big shoes to fill. I mean he's really, really good at job. And so I got home that day, didn't have the kids, and I went for a walk. And I I live in Ada. It's a beautiful town with walking paths and parks all over the place. So I have a loop that I usually make. it's about a mile and a half. And so as I was coming back to the house I was like, I haven't fully thought this through yet. So I kept going. The other way, just kept walking. And so I ended up walking about five miles. And with no agenda other than the fact that I needed to take it in, process it, and kind of feel whatever my gut was telling me. What do you need to do in the immediate here and now? What do you need to do in the next two weeks? You know, who are the people outside of me that this is gonna affect because it was gonna affect other people. What do those conversations look like? When can I have them? What should be said? You know, and when I was done with that walk I had a really, really good plan in my head that like this is gonna be okay because he chose a different job to benefit himself and his family for the right reasons. You know, nothing I would ever hold against and against somebody. So I didn't I didn't go into it with any kind of anger. It was just a problem that needed to be solved.

1:05:02 Paul Salter: Mm. Paul Salter: What are the consequences today if you don't continue to prioritize time to process? Kyle Holmes: I'll make a rash decision that I shouldn't make. whether it be purs pursuing some kind of, you know, business opportunity that on paper sounds good but could be a problem five years from now. or I don't take in information for one of the people that I count on from a management leadership role within Quail Ridge and you know, it comes to a head. Something like that. And so yeah, I need it. I absolutely need it. And and f and and and I like to journal in the mornings and I'm an early riser, just quiet in the mornings, it's quiet late in the evenings, you know, so there's there's always time within my days, even if I have the kids, that I can I can kinda steal away maybe for a half hour and 'cause I'm not in is my kid gonna be alive if I'm not looking at Which I know very, very well. At a certain age, I mean th that doesn't go away for a little while. but you know, they're all they're all old enough now where I can be in the home but I can also, you know, pull out my journal and just kinda write down, all right, these are the four or five things that when you get more time, when you drop them off tomorrow, let's revisit these, let's think about these.

1:06:31 Paul Salter: Yeah. Eight-month golf season, more or less. Forty-five thousand rounds during that time. The internet also tells me you're putting the finishing touches on what I believe is called the Nest, a big track man facility that's set to open in the next month or two. And you and I have also privately discussed just other opportunities you're considering and exploring with some seriousness to it. Do you think you will always be pursuing more? Kyle Holmes: Yeah. Kyle Holmes: Mm-hmm. Kyle Holmes: I do. Yeah. I I think as as somebody who has a religious background, you know, and and believes that, you know, we all possess certain gifts that other people don't. it w I would be doing myself and those around me a disservice if I didn't con if I didn't continue to pursue them. I just have more knowledge to pursue them smarter and more rationally in look at a few things and say, okay, these three things could all happen in the next ninety days, but there's not enough space to pursue all of So why don't we drop one or two of and look at this? and so that just as you as you age and grow and learn, those are things that I continually pick up on. and so what I view the next, you know, I'll be forty and two months, say till s fifty five or sixty, just the next fifteen or twenty years, I feel like there is a lot of things that I can continue to pursue. It just they don't all have to be done right now. I don't have to rush into everything and balance all of it at the same time.

1:08:12 Paul Salter: So I Yeah. Patience has become a skill you've developed, is what I'm hearing. Kyle Holmes: Patience. Yeah, yeah. Finally. Paul Salter: What do you hope your children take from you as they witness you continue to go after your dreams, continue to pursue extraordinary success? What do you ultimately hope they take away from watching you do that? Kyle Holmes: So I want them to pursue pursue their dreams and to set their bi their bars as high as they possibly can in their head. I don't ever want them to forget how good a people they are and how important other people are and how how you need to continue to foster those relationships. Some people get successful because they steamroll their way through. And I know that's a path and I just the way I'm built, I d I hope my children don't pursue that route. I hope they do it the right way, the right work ethic. Always keeping in mind that, you know, these goals are valid and you should pursue them because you're gonna feel left wanting more if you don't. but is it so valuable that you're willing to crush people along the way? and and I think that they've seen in my entire career that I've never taken that route, nor will I ever. And so I hope that they as they age they can pull that as kind of like in the back of their head that there's a right way to do it. And there's another way. I don't wanna say wrong way because there are people that have done it, but in my head it's just another way.

1:09:58 Paul Salter: What do you hope they take away from you with regards to this ambitious pursuit of their dreams and goals and the role that their family plays in that pursuit? Kyle Holmes: Yeah. I mean, they are blessed to have a loving father who, you know, is now much more present than he used to be. They're blessed to have a loving mother, who is there and takes care of their needs. They have two sets of grandparents and cousins and aunts and uncles who everyone cares for them. Don't forget You know, maintain those relationships and just You know, be very, very diligent in how you How you structure what you want to pursue and and what the reasons are. You know, are you doing this for vanity? Are you doing this for awards? Are you doing this because there's something inside of you that's missing you think it'll make you whole? Because those things don't exist. You know, and I and I've listened to to some of the people that you've talked to in other podcasts and and an overwhelming thought that I always hear regularly. is when I did this, when I sold this company, when I made X amount of money. It didn't make me happier. It didn't make my life better, you know. You may not have to worry about whether or not you can make that month's mortgage. And there's a there's a difference in that for certain people. but even people who have wild amounts of success are not happier because of their success. It's the journey that they went through, the people that they met, the relationships they formed.

1:11:51 Paul Salter: One of the last, maybe the last, questions I asked you in our preparation for this conversation was all about what you hope the audience takes away. And I'm gonna read your response to you. And I just want you to just check in and expand upon it. You said life is full of choices. Dreams are meant to be pursued. Families are meant to be loved and cherished, but true happiness is only found when you've stopped trying to be everything for everyone. When you recognize you are only in control of you, that's the best you can do. Kyle Holmes: Yeah, I like that. I guess I wrote it so Yeah, no, I I I would agree with all of that and and say that you can't be the best version of yourself for other people until you're the best version of yourself for yourself. You know, and I think there's this huge stigma on if you say something like that out loud, you're selfish. Paul puts Paul first. Kyle puts call Kyle first. And that's not true because if you don't put yourself first, how are you ever going to be the best version for somebody else? If you don't learn how to love yourself for who you are, what your traits are, what your skill sets are, what your weaknesses are, how are you ever going to be the best version for somebody else who may need you in that?

1:13:26 Paul Salter: Well said. Let me get you out of here with a few more questions that I like to ask all of the guests who are kind enough to join me. The first question I have for you, Kyle, is do you believe that you've learned to fully enjoy the success you've achieved? Kyle Holmes: yes and no. I I'm I'm very frugal by nature and and so, you know, the things that come with the success I have I I most certainly am not enjoying. but it's I think it's because they don't matter to me. but as far as the position it's put me in where I can pick my own hours, I can spend four or five days straight with my kids, and and not physically be at work. I I am Very much learning to enjoy those parts of it. Absolutely.

1:14:16 Paul Salter: How has your definition of success changed compared to when you first started to today? Kyle Holmes: I would say that my definition of success would have been I could write it down on a paper and cross it off when I accomplished it. whereas now my definition of success is am I am I pursuing the things I want to pursue in the way I want to pursue them, surrounded by the people I want to be surrounded with? Paul Salter: I like that. What didn't success give you that you thought it would? Kyle Holmes: Happiness. A calm. You know, a big parade. You know, not that I envision a parade, but you know, the you'd you'd see in movies and whatnot, somebody accomplishes something and they're those little confetti cannons and like everyone's cheering and everyone has champagne and they're toasting and you know, there's all these accolades and I can't believe that you did this. None of that happens. and nor does it Should it because it's unnecessary because the person who is in the position to receive all that, I can almost assure you is is not wanting to take that in. That isn't why they did what they did.

1:15:38 Paul Salter: What did your success cost you? Kyle Holmes: it cost me it cost me happiness for a long time. It cost me my my true self, my true identity of of who I am at my core. you know, pretending to be somebody that I wasn't in certain scenarios, wishing things could be different so I could be viewed differently or I could be taken more seriously. you know, I I I think ultimately, you know, I I use the word happiness a lot. 'cause I'm much happier now than I was. but I I think a lot of it really boils down to id identity of self and in in how you feel about yourself because you have to spend every waking moment with yourself, no matter what.

1:16:30 Paul Salter: How do you define happiness? Kyle Holmes: I would define happiness as calm, you know, a a piece to it. being surrounded by the people you want to be surrounded by, not wanting for things, i is a really big one. in that you know getting a bigger house or having a nicer car or having more awards to put on your mantle, those things while they sound Like they're gonna solve a lot of problems. They don't. Paul Salter: It's fascinating. I I like happiness the description of not wanting for something. Yet there's a part of you that wants to achieve X, Y, and Z down the road. How do you marry the two?

1:17:21 Kyle Holmes: I think it goes back to the that the fact that I I believe that I have gifts that other people don't and I was given them. for whatever reasons I was given them and and so it would be a disservice to myself if if I didn't pursue them. Paul Salter: And as you look ahead, what are you doing now to make sure that this continued pursuit of success no longer costs you what matters most? Kyle Holmes: If nothing I wanna do in the future ever pans out, my wa my life will have turned out just fine. I have everything I need. I I have a job working for myself, you know, that nobody can take from me. I'm surrounded by people that I love. I have a great family, I have great children, I I live in an area that feels like home. You know, there's a community aspect to it and I already have everything I need, so anything that may come my way in the future is just a bonus to whatever that that maybe could provide for my children down the road, or to help impact other people's lives if I were able to buy some other things from a business standpoint. but but not for myself.

1:18:43 Paul Salter: It's interesting. What I hear in listening to you say that is you're no longer running with this energy rooted in needing to prove yourself. You've reached a level of contentment of all you've achieved and what you have now. I also hear there's more gratitude and appreciation, yet you also recognize it is your duty to give back and leave an impact because of the skills and intangibles that you've been blessed with. Kyle Holmes: Mm-hmm. Kyle Holmes: Yeah, yeah. I I would agree with that wholeheartedly. There is and it's funny you use that word contentment. because that has been a point of contention in discussions I've had with people who are just there to try to help me and and help me kind of work through and talk through, you know, where I'm at, where I wanna go. and for years prior to the divorce or anything like that, prior to buying quail. It was a regular conversation of are you content? And I would always either falter or give some long witted answer that would kind of work around the answer and in the last year or so, you know, it has very much been you seem content. I'm not being asked if I'm content into to explain it.

1:20:04 Paul Salter: I use that word intentionally, as you can imagine, because it is a very polarizing word in these circles at these higher echelons of success. And it's it's a real point of friction and internal struggle. Because on one hand, many people, myself for a while, likely you too, if we accept that we're content, it's like, we've given up our edge, we're not pursuing anymore, we've grown weak, we've grown soft. Yet contentment can also embody a sense of peace. Kyle Holmes: Yeah. Paul Salter: A sense of presence, gratitude, appreciation, like we just described, without sacrificing the desire to pursue more. Kyle Holmes: Yeah, yeah, it is it's such a great word in in such a great way because there is no stock answer. There there is no canned I can just say yes and this will make sense. You kinda have to explain whether or not you're content or not. And I spent so much time trying to explain why I was content in so many different words rather than having somebody look at me after I say something and say You seem content.

1:21:15 Paul Salter: So for the listener right now, who very much resonates with your story, they have a level of needing to prove themselves or prove somebody wrong under the surface, fueling that tenacity, that work ethic. And it's reached a point where it's creating friction in their marriage, their relationship with children, loved ones. What words do you want to offer them in this time of challenge? Kyle Holmes: I would say you have to be honest with yourself first and then you have to be honest with those around you. How are you feeling? Why are you feeling this way? Whether you think you're gonna be judged or not. You know, if you say if if somebody says the weight of having this many people count on me is really, really hard and you may get judged by a colleague or something like that, you still have to say it. And and don't just say it to one person. Say it to whatever your circle is, whether You have parents or you have a spouse or you have close friends or you have a couple mentors or colleagues, the the more the better because then you can take all that information and you can see how each people receive it so you can grow from it. because you're going to experience those things. You're absolutely without a doubt are gonna feel like you have to give something up to pursue something, which is a trait of life. It it is that way no matter what. You wanna go on vacation, you have to give up money to go on vacation. You have to give up time to be there. You're always going to be trading things. So you might as well just be honest with yourself and then honest with those around you so you can figure out what you're willing to trade in if other people think that that trade is one that's worth it. And it may be and it may not be.

1:23:07 Paul Salter: Kyle, thank you so much for showing up with courage, honor honesty and vulnerability today. Kyle Holmes: This has been a pleasure. It's absolutely. It's to revisit, you know, my my career arc and my path and and my struggles and and my successes and and all that. And and also there was a lot of times where I was answering on the fly based on how you asked a question and I was feeling, you know, and so there wasn't that filter. There wasn't that moment where I can I gotta jot this down and make it sound just right. I really did appreciate that. Paul Salter: Yeah, you I appreciate you. I know this will really impact the lives of so many.

1:23:49 Kyle Holmes: Yeah. Well thank you so much.